Bad Advice about Higher Reps

[Sean Herbison]

Too many people to quote at this point

Watch me.

the maximum strength group ... would gain weight liberally and considerably and they wouldnt be concerned about higher (BFA 20-25%) body fat percentages. ... You could also extend the range of commitment to the goal of reaching maximum strength by introducing the variable of doping into the study design ... showing even further increases in maximum strength and decreases in health on the inverted U-shape curve
...
In conclusion, in my opinion the resarch is clear in showing that extreme levels of training (which is a prerequisite in order to attain one´s individual maximum level of strength) is not optimally healthy.

Sounds like a group of people who might not care about the most optimal, fastest strength gains at any cost when there are other variables to consider.

Who brought up the at any cost part? That changes the conversation entirely. There is a difference between striving to continuously gain strength and making it the only thing in your life.

If I don't know anything about lifting and I'm reading this, the first thing I'm gonna ask is why not sets of 4? 3? Heavy singles? I know what you're answer is gonna be, but you left that out. There's other variables beyond *just* load on the bar.

True enough. It makes sense in context, and hopefully this isn't the only article someone reads, but if it is, that would indeed be a likely question.

Go take a poll with people who've put in the time and reached high levels in any strength sport. Are any of them honestly gonna say that 3-5s are easier to recover from and produce less joint wear and tear than 8s and 10s? I've never read from a single person at the upper echelon who's said this.

Sets of 10 do not provide less wear and tear, because... they always get sloppier at the end of the set, if it's heavy enough to provide an adaptive stimulus, and slop produces injuries, which ARE wear and tear.

As for the sets always getting sloppier, no, they don't.

Where's the cutoff for high levels/the upper echelon? Do I count? If so, I'd have to say I'm in that camp you haven't heard of (from my totally unbiased position as a Starting Strength Coach). I think the reason most people think sets of 3-5 are harder to recover from is because they don't push the sets of 8-10 as hard. Most see low reps sets as strength builders, and push the weights accordingly. On the other hand, higher reps sets are used primarily as volume accumulators, and don't push as hard, relative to the lower-rep sets. So if one compares a set of 5 at 95% of 5RM and a set of 10 at 85% of 10RM, then yeah, the 10s may be easier to recover from. But if it's 95% of the respective RM for each, the higher-reps hit me harder.

This same logic applies to form breakdown as well. I've seen pretty technically sound 5RM sets, less so with 10RM sets, and never (so far as I can remember) on 20RM sets.

Which fits a bit the picture of some parts of the SS community as being more like a sect-like following.

That much is fair. To all the posters who disagree because you understand the importance of load, volume, relative/absolute strength, and all the other topics, you're fine. To all the posters (you know who you are) who disagree because Rip and Sully said so and you know they're always right - stop it, you're just being dicks.

Well, then, what did I say?

Well, I think the most relevant portion was:

They dont need to deadlift 150kg to pick up their grocery bag. No, 70 - lo and behold - even 40kg squats and 60kg deadlifts will serve those purposes fine.

And for that, you can train with lighter weights, higher reps.

which is not a helpful position to have. It inherently assumes that lighter weights for higher reps are better in some way, and that the way in which it is better outweighs the inefficiency of it. It also seems to imply that the practical difference between a 40kg squat and anything heavier is not very important.

To the person who asked why not do 1 set of 15? Well, you could. And you would get stronger if you added weight to the bar. Slower than 10s, and even slower still compared to 5s. But you sure could finish your workout faster and will gradually get a bit stronger over time.

Sure, but for how long? I think other rep ranges have their place, particularly post-novice, but you can run someone a long time adding weight to 5s. This doesn't work nearly as well with 15s. So could you get Grandma up to that 40kg squat with sets of 15? Well, assuming she has the stamina for it, sure. But why would you want to take four months instead of two, and how much further can you take her without needing more complicated programming?

Read the competition logs and almost all lifters have some sort of weight lifting related injury or sore points.

I agree that using safe rational and effective training is conducive to good health, but at what point does it stop being safe and rational? When do you stop pushing for more?

When the line between "not enough" and "too much" stress becomes too narrow to be worth navigating. That point is up to you. For competitors, that point is further along the curve, so yes, we risk hitting the "too much" side of the wall as we're trying to squeeze along a narrower and narrower path.

So it comes down to you people saying stuff vs other people saying stuff, basically.

My dad is 64 and seems to manage just fine in those [~ 10 reps] ranges. He is but one man, I know.

Unfortunately, a lot of topics come down to that, unless you've got enough experience yourself. From your own experience of one person who won't push lower body very far, it's unfortunately the position you find yourself in. Me too, to the extent that I don't have nearly the experience Sully or Rip do with older trainees (or any trainees, for that matter), though I do have the benefit of a bit more experience than one person.

I don't think your points are all terrible, dbp, I just don't think you've got enough data to judge from, so you can't see why people are disagreeing with what you've seen.

[Scaldrew]

This whole thread is seriously the best case for the use of the google and the search function to read up on all kinds of questions answered on this board. I can only commend everyone who's still fighting the good fight here because I would've died from brain haemorrhaging several pages ago were I to weigh in. Holy hell.