Defending lifters against bad technique.

[Ryan Arnold]

To be precise, here is the "use case":

- The guy told be to spot him during a bench press.
- He is around 50, doing sport after a long break.
- His elbows are doing a 90° angle with his torso.
- He asks me about the form.
1. I said it was bad and dangerous because of the friction on the tendons such a position causes.
- I go on the bench, show him how to do it as I learned from SS and next session: the same story repeats.

- My hypothesis is that he does not believe me at point 1.
- Assuming I choose not to ignore the guy and help him (he asked), how to make him understand that it's not bullshit, that it's actually dangerous?

I don't understand. Have you never experienced people in life whose actions do not support their words? This is fairly common. To re-iterate what Rip said, just answer his questions if you like. If not, don't. The last gym I worked at there was a guy who would literally ask me questions on a weekly basis about lifting while he was working out. He never once adjusted his technique or programming despite how awful it was over a year and a half. Its up to you whether you are going to let things like this bother you. As we speak there are probably 20,000 or so people deadlifting with rounded spines. Despite the fact that they will probably all remain un-hospitalized...we can't save the all. You can't MAKE people do stuff anymore than you can't make it be 78 and sunny every day. Well, unless you live in San Diego

[Matthew_888]

I don't understand. Have you never experienced people in life whose actions do not support their words?

Of course and I did not invest too much time in there either:

I tried again today to help the guy.
Either I am not clear enough and/or he suffers from a little bit of a "testa dura" like Italian friends would say.
Will not bother too much anymore: words don't work with him.
I will not brings crayons and draw him a picture: he has Internet like me and has been warned.
I wonder if it works to fire guys that are a little bit too hardheaded, had I've been a Gym owner...

we can't save the all. You can't MAKE people do stuff anymore than you can't make it be 78 and sunny every day. Well, unless you live in San Diego

- Of course... and that's why I ignore 90% of the gym doing crazy BS.
- But this guy asked.
- So I had to help.
- Like said above, I decided that I have tried enough.
- The essential idea is: does other kind of tools (videos described above) would augment the reach of SS?
-- This interest comes from the fact that I consider SS so far more like preventive medicine (that is, actual medicine) than just a "sport".
-- I do think that its reach can be extended to hard headed individuals providing adapted tools.
-- I do think that, provided we reject for a second the artificial mind/body division, it can influence be seen like a more complete development tool, specially for children (> 14yo).
-- The strength and health section shows this.
-- These are some reasons I bother... also because I plan to use this on some people for which "hard headed" is kind of an euphemism.

[Ryan Arnold]

Of course and I did not invest too much time in there either:





- Of course... and that's why I ignore 90% of the gym doing crazy BS.
- But this guy asked.
- So I had to help.
- Like said above, I decided that I have tried enough.
- The essential idea is: does other kind of tools (videos described above) would augment the reach of SS?
-- This interest comes from the fact that I consider SS so far more like preventive medicine (that is, actual medicine) than just a "sport".
-- I do think that its reach can be extended to hard headed individuals providing adapted tools.
-- I do think that, provided we reject for a second the artificial mind/body division, it can influence be seen like a more complete development tool, specially for children (> 14yo).
-- The strength and health section shows this.
-- These are some reasons I bother... also because I plan to use this on some people for which "hard headed" is kind of an euphemism.

I can actually provide some perspective here because I'm a relatively new SSC. Once you do the program yourself, realize how well it works, and start to see how well it works coaching others(if you are in such a position) you immediately think - "wow this is the best thing in the world everyone on the planet should be doing it this way because it makes so much sense, etc." But then you realize due to pre-discussed problems with human nature/thinking logically as well as the state of the fitness industry(people ingrained in crossfit, functional training, and youtube heroes) that this WILL BE A SLOW PROCESS. I think the organization is doing just about all it can from a standpoint of Seminars, books, articles, instructional videos, etc. Sully literally just went on tour giving talks on barbell training. All the changes you mention can and hopefully will take place - but it will be years, not months since we are fighting so many constraints. The more people of influence who get on board the better

[Sam McLeod]

Matthew, I think you are misunderstanding your responsibilities/moral duties. When asked for help, you offer it. You did that. If he doesn't accept it, I hold that it is not your responsibility to go further with a "hammer" to force him to understand why what he is doing is wrong. Take the posteriori argument from Rip that teaching these movements is not done well by teaching them how not to do them.

I still hold to my opinion that teaching someone all of the horrible things that could happen to them with the improper form will create a hostile environment where the needed intensity to complete the exercises and get strong will be diminished for a large percentage of the normal people who implement this program.

Rip has made it very clear that we are narrow casting with this ideology. If you feel like there needs to be videos showing these dangers, use your agency and make them.

I'm just pushing the idea that the rights and duties of someone should grow with its intrinsic abilities

Is this a french thing? Do people who greater intrinsic abilities have more rights than those who don't? Does "right" mean something different to you than to us in USA?

Even walking is not "natural"... if toddlers could speak, they would tell you how many times they failed. Or maybe a guy who had brain damage and has to learn to walk again.

You're making the argument that walking is not natural? You're making the argument that squatting down and standing up is not natural when it is literally one of the first things a toddler does when they learn to move around and interact with the world? Do you have to teach a kid how to body weight squat (obviously not with a loaded bar)? Do you have to teach a toddler how to reach down and pick something up off the floor? The basic premise of this ENTIRE SS ideology is that we are working the body how it is meant to be trained, or as some who interpret it, the way the body naturally wants to be trained.

I respect that you hold to your ideas and have a righteous intentions, but I have yet to be swayed by anything you have said so far.

[Matthew_888]

I can actually provide some perspective here because I'm a relatively new SSC. Once you do the program yourself, realize how well it works, and start to see how well it works coaching others(if you are in such a position) you immediately think - "wow this is the best thing in the world everyone on the planet should be doing it this way because it makes so much sense, etc." But then you realize due to pre-discussed problems with human nature/thinking logically as well as the state of the fitness industry(people ingrained in crossfit, functional training, and youtube heroes) that this WILL BE A SLOW PROCESS. I think the organization is doing just about all it can from a standpoint of Seminars, books, articles, instructional videos, etc. Sully literally just went on tour giving talks on barbell training. All the changes you mention can and hopefully will take place - but it will be years, not months since we are fighting so many constraints. The more people of influence who get on board the better

- Yes. I totally agree.
- The organization, books, seminars and videos are a treasure, truly. It's so much above anything else I came across so far.
- It's so true that I use all the tricks I can to point people toward SS.
- Usually it's pretty natural and "basic": after 3 months I took so much weight and can lift so much (relatively to others doing random stuff at the gym) than any others w/o being gifted genetically that guys naturally ask questions.
- I just answer look at "Starting Strength, this Mark Rippetoe guy and friends know what they are doing." and give some advice about the obvious crazy BS they do when they do it and ask me to comment upon.
- In 3 month I've pointed 4 people to it, hope to get up to 6 in two weeks.
- This is viral marketing 101, Tuppleware style.
- I think it's the best marketing SS can have albeit slower relatively to "impressive" Instagram BS marketing.
- I think that the best population target is about 30yo+ and their children.

- I think it's not irrelevant to consider the guy that I bump into at the gym.
- I am willing to invest some time in there and hopefully find something that can be generalized and used by others.
- I think he represents a big segment of the population that would benefit the most from SS.
- Let's say that the guy, let's call him "Jhon", has this "profile":
-- He came at least 3 times a week to the gym for at least 2 weeks.
-- 50yo, not sportive, very shy, unsure about himself, eager to speak about his youth and how he would like to bench as he did before, to feel some pride again.
-- He asks help but strangely do not follow given advice.
-- I think the barrier is emotional in nature: he said "I will bench like you when I'll get better at it."
-- It's a logical non sense but if you screw stuff enough with emotions I think it can be interpreted at: "I cannot possibly do as you do since you are so much better at it than me."
-- As if the bench press position was only reserved for "top performers" (which I am not) but he thinks I am.
-- He fails to understand that the position is designed to protect his body, not to improve some kind of performance (it does, but it's a second order effect).

- Instead of giving up, let's imagine that we could unlock the situation.
- If the "formula" can be generalized to others with the same "profile", would it not be Good?
- The SS organization has all the data points and probably some "off the shelf" solutions.
- What would you try?

[Matthew_888]

Matthew, I think you are misunderstanding your responsibilities/moral duties. When asked for help, you offer it. You did that. If he doesn't accept it, I hold that it is not your responsibility to go further with a "hammer" to force him to understand why what he is doing is wrong.

- He straight up came to me and said: "Please, whenever you see me doing something wrong, correct me."
- I answered: "Yes."
- I am not forcing anything on anyone. The "hammer" thing is just to say that Rip videos are quite intellectual: he explains stuff with words and it's up to the motivated audience to map the words to what happens when doing the movement. E.g. in his Art of manliness video about the Press, he shows a scapula and how it does not create an impingement. Well, I think that not even 10% of the guys understand what he is talking about because you need to have a model (knowing the muscles, insertions, ligaments, ...) in the mind to simulate what he is saying. When Rip sees the scapula on top of the guy's hoodie I bet that all the beautiful mechanics of the body clicks in his head, but not for most other people (which is to be expected given the shit state of education today, but let's not digress again).
-- Don't get me wrong: his content is exceptionally good compared to virtually anything else: lots of bangs for the buck as he would say.
- There is this subtle and paradoxical situation where the guy accepts the help but fails to understand it.
- I interpret that as myself unable to transmit the information: to tune it so that he can decipher it.
- I think the signal appears to him as "jammed".
- I think there is value in cracking the case because I will have to do something that I think is similar again at least 2 times.

Take the posteriori argument from Rip that teaching these movements is not done well by teaching them how not to do them.

- Yes. W/o me investing more time into solving this problem, it's definitely what should be done.
- I am interested into solving this case for some reasons. It also might be interesting to have Ryan Arnold inputs. Will see how it goes.

I still hold to my opinion that teaching someone all of the horrible things that could happen to them with the improper form will create a hostile environment where the needed intensity to complete the exercises and get strong will be diminished for a large percentage of the normal people who implement this program.

- I agree. If to do SS you first need to go through all kinds of horrible surgeries and stuff, of course it will not work and it is not necessary.
- It was not my point.
- My point was that if a guy keep repeating the same mistake even after trying ≠ ways of telling him how bad it is then, maybe, after he just did it again, to show him the kind of stuff he is likely to run into, will "unstuck" something in his mind.

Rip has made it very clear that we are narrow casting with this ideology. If you feel like there needs to be videos showing these dangers, use your agency and make them.

Quoting myself:

[...]
- Since I am not producing the video, it's clearly up to Rip and friends to accept/ignore the idea, as they see fit.
- If I ask someone else to consider the idea and produce it instead of me, then it must bring him value.
[...]

- Do you think I am some kind of leftist/feminist?
- But yes, maybe, I will end up patching up something, will see how it goes.

Is this a french thing? Do people who greater intrinsic abilities have more rights than those who don't? Does "right" mean something different to you than to us in USA?

- Yes, it does mean something different.
- For what I understand, rights in the U.S. are closer to what is called "natural rights" (Thomas Pain):

It is a perversion of terms to say that a charter gives rights. It operates by a contrary effect – that of taking rights away. Rights are inherently in all the inhabitants; but charters, by annulling those rights, in the majority, leave the right, by exclusion, in the hands of a few. ... They...consequently are instruments of injustice.

The fact therefore must be that the individuals themselves, each in his own personal and sovereign right, entered into a compact with each other to produce a government: and this is the only mode in which governments have a right to arise, and the only principle on which they have a right to exist.

- In France and other communist countries, rights are closer to "legal rights" that is, given by the state (establishment). The state invented a religion called "laïcité", "God should be incarnated in each of us".
-- The guy who told this stuff is Vincent Peillon, former education minister...

- Unfortunately no. Intrinsic abilities has nothing to do with the amount of rights you have in France.
- I tend to think that the less abilities you have the more likely you are to go up the state's ladder.
- The few who have some abilities are immoral pricks: thieves.
- We are plagued by politicians and the state which spending represents 58% of the GDP.
- The state takes more than 40% in taxes compared to about 20% in the U.S.
-- The effect of that money spent by the state is not exactly "good"... ask people working in hospitals... We are healing guys and killing the physicians... ridiculous.
- France is a total disaster today. Everyone knows this, but the state apparently.

- if you represents a group of people as a network which nodes are people and arcs are interactions (exchanges, commerce, hugs, slaps, whatever),
- then the group may agree upon "basic rights/duties". Those who do not may form an other social network.
- These natural rights and duties forbid some interactions for all the nodes.
- It gives the network a direction by encouraging some interactions and forbidding others.
- Some nodes may earn special rights/duties because of their special abilities for example to formulate a judgement when necessary.
- It is non-sense to grant as much rights/duties to a 12yo as to a 60yo.
- Since humans vary widely in terms of abilities, it would make sense to have rights/duties adapted to this variability.
- I am just saying that it would make sense a priori.
- I have no idea if it practically does... first problem is an accurate measure of "intrinsic" abilities in childhood, second one is to create a curriculum that would help master these abilities.
- These two steps represents probably years and years of work...
- ... but given the mess we are in, I find it interesting to ask this question.

You're making the argument that walking is not natural? You're making the argument that squatting down and standing up is not natural when it is literally one of the first things a toddler does when they learn to move around and interact with the world? Do you have to teach a kid how to body weight squat (obviously not with a loaded bar)? Do you have to teach a toddler how to reach down and pick something up off the floor? The basic premise of this ENTIRE SS ideology is that we are working the body how it is meant to be trained, or as some who interpret it, the way the body naturally wants to be trained.

I respect that you hold to your ideas and have a righteous intentions, but I have yet to be swayed by anything you have said so far.

Quoting myself:

- If natural "means" that [these movements] respect anatomy and involve a maximal amount of muscle mass over a maximal range of motion, then yes.

- I think we agree on what "natural" means. And yes, toddlers know how to squat!
- Please, let me reformulate.
- The movements are natural.
- The guy does not recognize them as natural.
- The problem occurs in the mind, the body is naturally able to do them, I do not question that.

[petesmithing]

I'll try to get this back on topic. Its a terrible idea to make "don't do this" videos because of a psychological & physiological phenomena called mirror neurons. These mirror neurons are part of subconscious mental processing of information. Basically, you take in information, predominately by sight, and as part of mental processing mirror neurons encourage you to emulate what you just took in. Mirror neurons are used in learning motor patterns. It allows for faster learning and physical adaption. Feeding yourself bad information, in the form of "don't do this" videos will actually cause you to copy the bad patterns that you're trying to avoid. That's why teaching and learning barbell exercises utilizing proper form is important. It's much easier just to deal with the troubleshooting of common faults when they pop up AFTER trying to copy good form.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Best post so far, Pete. Thanks.

[Matthew_888]

I'll try to get this back on topic. Its a terrible idea to make "don't do this" videos because of a psychological & physiological phenomena called mirror neurons. These mirror neurons are part of subconscious mental processing of information. Basically, you take in information, predominately by sight, and as part of mental processing mirror neurons encourage you to emulate what you just took in. Mirror neurons are used in learning motor patterns. It allows for faster learning and physical adaption. Feeding yourself bad information, in the form of "don't do this" videos will actually cause you to copy the bad patterns that you're trying to avoid. That's why teaching and learning barbell exercises utilizing proper form is important.

- Interesting!

It's much easier just to deal with the troubleshooting of common faults when they pop up AFTER trying to copy good form.

- Precisely.
- I said: "here is how to do it and why."
- the guy said "ok" and looked at it.
- He tried.
- Next session at the bench press he says: "Yeah this stuff for champions I will do them later when I am better at the bench press."
1. He benched and at the end of the set then I said: "Well, it would be a good thing that you try to touch somewhere around your sternum with the bar (*finger touches said position*); else with elbows too high, you are probably slowly digging in your tendons because this angle makes the head of the humerus jam everything up in the shoulder. It's possible to feel it by trying to elevate the elbow a bit more."
- No effect: guys do it again. Story repeats 2 times.

- I thought that at the end of step 1., showing up something that illustrates my point would make a difference, hence this thread.
-- My model of the situation is: the coach compares in real time the guy's movement with what he thinks should be (his model).
-- From the difference between the observation and his model and past history he chooses the best cue he can think of to close the gap between his model and the observation.
-- It was never my point to show the not to do video before the mistake.
- Supposedly putting out a "what not to do" illustrative video on YouTube would necessarily make some people look at them before and that would be wrong.
- It makes sense and enough people gave their input so that no one should do this.

- What about just after the mistake?
- If showing an illustrative video after the fact is not an option, assuming something has to be done, what is to be done?

1. Basically, you take in information, predominately by sight, and as part of mental processing mirror neurons encourage you to emulate what you just took in.
2. Mirror neurons are used in learning motor patterns.
3. It allows for faster learning and physical adaption.
4. Feeding yourself bad information, in the form of "don't do this" videos will actually cause you to copy the bad patterns that you're trying to avoid.
5. That's why teaching and learning barbell exercises utilizing proper form is important.
6. It's much easier just to deal with the troubleshooting of common faults when they pop up AFTER trying to copy good form.

Mirror neurons are defined by the
property that they fire during both
the execution and the observation of
a specific action.

Social Neuroscience: Mirror Neurons Recorded in Humans

To Do or Not To Do What I See: That
Is the Question
The existence of mirror neurons
always begged a question: if motor
neurons are activated when we see
the actions of others, why do we
not always imitate what we see?

Social Neuroscience: Mirror Neurons Recorded in Humans

- So, considering point 4.: mirror neurons do not cause us to reproduce the movements we try to avoid.
- There are seemingly other indirection levels in between what the mirrors neurons mimic and what we actually do.
- In particular: mirror levels may actually help burn in "memory" motor pathways but it does not mean that these pathways are "labelled" as "Good" and "Bad".
A. Pavlov showed that it's possible to "label" certain mechanical behaviors as "Good" and "Bad" given appropriate "reward/punishment" at appropriate times.
- It's because of point A. and because we learn well motor skills by imitating someone else that I cued the guy just after the mistake and demonstrated the good position.
- The video was intended to "intensify" the "Bad" label that should be associated to a 90° elbows angle.

- Looking forward your answer!

[Mark Rippetoe]

Some important concepts here:

The Coaching Eye

Learning and Teaching Strategies | stef bradford