Defending lifters against bad technique.

[Matthew_888]

Rip,

Why don't you illustrate the horrors of bad technique, exercise by exercise?

It's clear that improving strength through barbell training can do good to almost everyone as you illustrated it in numerous articles e.g.
- Swogger's Revenge
- Why Your Kids Should Be Lifting Weights
- Strength Training for People My Age

But it's also clear that they are completely inefficient in between sets inside the gym to guide anyone.
Even the very good 5min technical videos.
e.g. a guy told me: "please correct my lifts if you see something that is incorrect".
What am I suppose to do?
I am not SSC by any mean and just 3 months in the LP.
"Yeah, go watch this 6min video now, it will tell you what to do." ?

I think it's much easier to tell someone what not to do using a short video of 1min30-2min.
It can be quite eloquent (spinal injuries are quite convincing).
The justified induced fear soften the mind and makes it porous to other ways.
It can lead the guy to dig SS when times allows it.
The essential of the "what to do" video can be actually shown by the SS guy in the gym,
any reasonable person would add cautionary statements: "I am no SSC, buy the book,
watch YT videos, sub to the forum, make up your own mind."

It's clear that trying to improve strength through bad barbell technique can lead to horrible surgeries: plenty of material are available e.g.
- Bad technique:

link removed

- Link between bad technique and horrible injuries: Spinal fusion of Brooke Ence's vertebrae C6,C7 (YouTube).

- Resulting horrible surgery:

link removed


Of course you probably know all that, but I did not, specially the terrifying C6/C7 fusion stuff. God, that's awful.
I know about your terrible shoulder surgery and your lack of responsiveness to opioids (same here for opioids) but
only 20mins deep in an interview video. Most of us, specially younger guys, do not have a clue of what that really
means in terms of pain.

I did not find SS videos that illustrate the latter point in a format good enough to be shown right at the spot when it matters most: in the gym.
Yes, there is the injuries playlist on the YouTube SS account but impractical in the gym.

What would be necessary are 1min30s-2min videos that tell:
- "if you keep your elbows high on the bench, you will probably need a shoulder surgery soon enough. It hurts, it's expensive and completely avoidable: don't do that."
- "If you keep doing your deadlifts with a rounded back and head up, you will probably end up with an hernia and risk a c6/c7 vertebrae fusion. It hurts, it's expensive and completely avoidable: don't do that."

It should be graphic (some screws in bones should show up at some point): the shock make people listen usually, specially in context (the gym).
It should be short and easy to find w/ a "smart"phone to benefit from time in between sets.
(a "Do not" playlist w/ videos titled: "Bench Press: do not press at 90°", "Squat: do not round your back", ...)
It should show the way: "these injuries are completely avoidable, watch the Starting Strength technique video playlist on the Squat/Bench Press/Deadlift/..., buy the book, sub to the forum".

A measurable consequence of this effort would be how many a SS guy can "touch" in the gym.
If all of the SS guy convince 2 other guys in the gym every 3 months...
Well, that is what "growth" looks like.

Many thanks for all of you guys, doing good with Starting Strength.

[Mark Rippetoe]

First, I removed your links because we're not going to deal with photos of injured people without their permission, and I don't know that you have your shit straight here. Second, I know for an absolute fact that you cannot teach people what to do by showing them what not to do. This is like saying, "5 x 5 does not equal 249. What does it equal?" without teaching multiplication. In other words, scaring people into correct technique by showing them incorrect technique and its consequences does not work, and you know this because the CrossFit Games are still held every year.

[Matthew_888]

First, I removed your links because we're not going to deal with photos of injured people without their permission, and I don't know that you have your shit straight here.

- Well: "the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes." (Fair use) and the fact that it's all over the Internet and already wildly shared already and commented upon. But I am not a lawyer so my bad and it's true that it is nice to ask before (already shared 1000s of times, c'mon).

In other words, scaring people into correct technique by showing them incorrect technique and its consequences does not work, and you know this because the CrossFit Games are still held every year.

- Well, the problem is the delay between the cause and the consequence.
- It's easy to understand that a cigarette burns hard and almost no one would burn intentionally himself twice...
- ...unfortunately, people keep smoking even if future consequences are in some case way worse.
- The idea was to, in context (in the gym), shorten the distance between cause and necessary consequence and avoid unnecessary future suffering.
- We usually learn better in context and by trial and error.
- Some errors are not worth doing and are not sexy: they are not associated with the cause for marketing reasons.

- Some guys regularly come to me and say: "is my form good?"
- After pointing at all the problems and their probable dangers (I essentially just repeat what I understood from your books and apply to myself)
- After showing them how I do it and why,
- I see no results: the guy do almost the same stuff the next session and ask almost the same question.
- It's like seeing someone in pain (even if he does not know it yet b/c of the delay between cause and consequence) asking for help and not being able to do anything.
- I can ignore or use the few minutes in between my sets to answer his questions and avoid unnecessary suffering.
- Since I naturally tend to the latter...
- Well it means learning how to coach essentially...

[Matthew_888]

To be precise, here is the "use case":

- The guy told be to spot him during a bench press.
- He is around 50, doing sport after a long break.
- His elbows are doing a 90° angle with his torso.
- He asks me about the form.
1. I said it was bad and dangerous because of the friction on the tendons such a position causes.
- I go on the bench, show him how to do it as I learned from SS and next session: the same story repeats.

- My hypothesis is that he does not believe me at point 1.
- Assuming I choose not to ignore the guy and help him (he asked), how to make him understand that it's not bullshit, that it's actually dangerous?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Your job is to answer his questions. His job is to decide whether he wants to act upon your answers. That is all.

[Sam McLeod]

It should be graphic (some screws in bones should show up at some point): the shock make people listen usually, specially in context (the gym).

Didn't Jordan or Austin say something about trying to keep peoples mental state away from feeling broken or a "special snowflake" by not giving them something to worry and fret about? Creating a self-fulfilling prophesy of sorts that results in perceived injury, thus hampering what would have been a normal strength progression with the common aches and pains that are to be ignored?

Rip is on the right track with this one, it is up to them to apply the principles correctly and teaching someone how not to do something is pointless/confusing/dangerous most of the time. I am of the opinion that the way it is taught in the books (what we do and why we do it) is enough to hamper the intelligent person from doing things not in the book. Unintelligent people doing it wrong is just a form of natural selection...

[Matthew_888]

Unintelligent people doing it wrong is just a form of natural selection...

- The guy is conscious enough to ask for help (unlike 90% of the gym).
- There is no reason to think that he is not well-meaning (craving for attention or whatever crazy BS).
- I though I had the resources to help: couple of minutes in between my sets and taking SS seriously.
- So Natural selection in this case means failing despite my help: it would be bad not to help the guy, as bad as not ignoring a guy about to use an axe to cut his fingers and asking me for help on how to use an axe.
- The steady state behavior here is me repeating all the ways I know of to make him understand that this 90° will likely end up in pain, this is bad: earn small, loose a lot.
- Among all the ways I know of to answer his questions, I though that maybe one could make him understand but I could not produce it myself:
- a 2min videos that shows what happens inside a shoulder when bench pressing with a 90° angle and resulting injuries/surgeries, when he just made the same mistake.
- I think it's bad enough for making people feel uncomfortable enough for the brain (Kahneman would say "system 2") to work a little and say
- "ho boy, I don't want that but I want to keep training so will not do the 90° BS anymore: it will end up badly"

- If I ask someone else to consider the idea and produce it instead of me, then it must bring him value.
- I think that the value here is: 1) protecting people from bad technique 2) spreading SS more "efficiently"
- Where ever you have a guy with a smartphone and SS in the head then people around him awake enough to ask for help are more protected against bad technique:
- the guy has very convincing arguments adapted to a wide range of people: men, women, young, old, abstract, not so abstract, example driven, whatever useful category.
- The end result would be that 1 SS guy can convince many other guys per month: word of mouth on steroids.

- Since I am not producing the video, it's clearly up to Rip and friends to accept/ignore the idea, as they see fit.

- "common aches and pains that are to be ignored?" When you feel pain, sometimes, it's too late. Sometimes you do not even feel pain but weakness in left arm compared to right arm: it's too late.
- When the distance is "big" in between cause and consequence, pain becomes more and more irrelevant.

- "it is up to them to apply the principles correctly" As Rip said him himself, he is "above average intellectually" (paraphrasing)
- as are the 0.02*(20/1000)*320 000 000 = 128 000 people born/y in America with superior intellectual abilities (compare this to the 20 000/y Ivy league enrollment rate and you have 108 000 questions to ask)
- Applying principles for some is much easier than for others: those that can must use their ability to make those with less abilities to apply them, when conditions are favorable.
- It is not their fault if a few are quicker and it is not their fault if others are slower.

- "Unintelligent people doing it wrong is just a form of natural selection..."
- Sometimes yes.
- Sometimes no: at this very moment we are all surrounded by guys w/ much higher abilities than ours and they still share generously their knowledge for the benefit of all and themselves.
- They could have shared BS to make everyone dumber and themselves much richer.
- It would be bad to ignore a suffering in the making when a couple of minutes would suffice to stop it.

[Matthew_888]

I tried again today to help the guy.
Either I am not clear enough and/or he suffers from a little bit of a "testa dura" like Italian friends would say.
Will not bother too much anymore: words don't work with him.
I will not brings crayons and draw him a picture: he has Internet like me and has been warned.
I wonder if it works to fire guys that are a little bit too hardheaded, had I've been a Gym owner...

[Sam McLeod]

I hope you did not take Rip or my comments to mean that we don't think your actions are well-meaning or are out of a compulsive need to be correct. You obviously don't want people to get hurt, and I have a hard time imagining the type of person who is sitting at home wondering how to mess people's form up in barbell lifts on purpose for their sick pleasure...

All of us who have spent a good portion of time in the gym have had conversations where we share advice that has not been received and implemented (even after being probed for said advice). You're catching on with your last comment about this fella, you did as much as I would say your moral duties require and if I were in the situation I would have probably done the same.

Also,

- "it is up to them to apply the principles correctly" As Rip said him himself, he is "above average intellectually" (paraphrasing)
- as are the 0.02*(20/1000)*320 000 000 = 128 000 people born/y in America with superior intellectual abilities (compare this to the 20 000/y Ivy league enrollment rate and you have 108 000 questions to ask)
- Applying principles for some is much easier than for others: those that can must use their ability to make those with less abilities to apply them, when conditions are favorable.
- It is not their fault if a few are quicker and it is not their fault if others are slower.

Are you part of the .02% of the population that fits into that genius category? I know that I'm not, I'll guess that you're not (no offense, just chances), I wouldn't say that Rip is in the top .02% even though I do think he is above average intelligence. My point is that it doesn't take someone of above average intelligence to learn these movements. They're basically all natural movements in the first place, right? My intelligent/unintelligent comparison was for the sake of levity, and probably is better described by a comparison between being diligent/careless. A diligent person who reads and practices the movements, compared to a careless person who does not and injures themselves taking them out of the lifting "pool".

- "common aches and pains that are to be ignored?" When you feel pain, sometimes, it's too late. Sometimes you do not even feel pain but weakness in left arm compared to right arm: it's too late.
- When the distance is "big" in between cause and consequence, pain becomes more and more irrelevant.

We have both been lifting for a while now I am sure, and we have both experienced "aches and pains" along the way. The subjective feelings of pain in the lower back that has not been felt before for a novice trainee, or pulled/yanked muscles in the legs, could represent to them a condition that would prevent them from working forward, getting stronger and avoiding actual serious injuries. If you tell a novice that a fused spine is possible during a squat, then you have just created a danger that didn't need to be present. Getting under the bar is scary enough for most novice lifters. When a coach is correcting form, there are situations where he will do exactly what you did (I have seen Rip do it as well in several videos) by telling them that their arm angle on the bench will lead to impingement.

Think of it just like playing a contact sport like football or rugby. When your coach is teaching you how to tackle and hit the opponent, he doesn't show you videos of players dislocating their fingers, getting concussions, or broken femurs. How hard would you hit the opponent if you thought that was going to happen?

It's not bad to teach someone what to do and why not to do it when they show the need to be fixed. Showing it to them before the bad movement will create a dangerous atmosphere that does not need to exist. Especially considering that weightlifting has one of the lowest injury rates in comparison to every other sport. Soccer being the most dangerous, I believe, while it is played by toddlers who are just learning to stand up.

[Matthew_888]

Are you part of the .02% of the population that fits into that genius category? I know that I'm not, I'll guess that you're not (no offense, just chances), I wouldn't say that Rip is in the top .02% even though I do think he is above average intelligence.

- c'mon... I'm just pushing the idea that the rights and duties of someone should grow with its intrinsic abilities (not extrinsic: how big is your car, house, whatever).
-- This is in opposition to most systems today where everyone should be at worst equal and at best equal wrt the law.
-- I hooked a little to underline the supreme hypocrisy of the ivy league system b/c about 100 000 person/y that would benefit the most of intensive studies miss out.
-- Obviously, if they did, the Ivy league would look very ≠, specially if you connect that to the principle: "greater abilities means greater rights and duties".
-- Also, we do not have tools that I know of that could map abilities of someone accurately enough a priori.
-- a posteriori, writing SS and all the machinery around seems a pretty solid sign to me.
-- It does not grant an unconditional higher rank, but it does grant a conditional higher rank, superiority, obviously.
-- You may discuss the guy, but when in doubt, obey the guy. No shame to that, just common sense.

- It means that it is hypocritical to invoke natural selection in this context: provided some conditions, one that knows more should not let a guy who knows less to hurt himself, he has to find a way to make the message understandable.
- It's like explaining to children how gravity works as a field by using balls on a bed sheet and curvatures instead of equations.
- It's hypocritical to present the child equations and say: "he does not understand, natural selection will take care of him".

My point is that it doesn't take someone of above average intelligence to learn these movements. They're basically all natural movements in the first place, right? My intelligent/unintelligent comparison was for the sake of levity, and probably is better described by a comparison between being diligent/careless. A diligent person who reads and practices the movements, compared to a careless person who does not and injures themselves taking them out of the lifting "pool".

- You miss the point.
- The guy is not even trying to learn the movements.
- He does not even understand he should.
- Worse: he thinks it's ok the way he does it.
- It is exactly the same as jumping off a cliff, thinking he will fly.

- These movements are not "natural" at all! (what does even mean?) I'm 3 months in LP and God knows how hard it is to nail the squat perfectly each time, even considering the fact what you think of my abilities ;-).
- Even walking is not "natural"... if toddlers could speak, they would tell you how many times they failed. Or maybe a guy who had brain damage and has to learn to walk again.
- If natural "means" that they respect anatomy and involve a maximal amount of muscle over a maximal range of motion, then yes.

We have both been lifting for a while now I am sure, and we have both experienced "aches and pains" along the way. The subjective feelings of pain in the lower back that has not been felt before for a novice trainee, or pulled/yanked muscles in the legs, could represent to them a condition that would prevent them from working forward, getting stronger and avoiding actual serious injuries.If you tell a novice that a fused spine is possible during a squat, then you have just created a danger that didn't need to be present. Getting under the bar is scary enough for most novice lifters. When a coach is correcting form, there are situations where he will do exactly what you did (I have seen Rip do it as well in several videos) by telling them that their arm angle on the bench will lead to impingement.

- I tried.
- Did not work.
- It's the reason why I asked a bigger hammer (the videos) to Rip: depending on the thickness of the skull you may need a bigger hammer to go through (I have a very thick skull FYI).
- It's usually better to search for a soft spot and hit there again w/o changing tools but I exhausted all possibilities.
- Letting bigger hammers in nature may scare people off...
- Well, barbell training is extremely efficient compared to other training: if you use it like an idiot you can get extremely hurt.
- It's just part of the game...
- Like say, using a car. Using a car like an idiot is bad and people should better know it.
-- Most of the time you don't know something if you behave like you don't.
- Quite a few people should never use barbells and/or a car.

Think of it just like playing a contact sport like football or rugby. When your coach is teaching you how to tackle and hit the opponent, he doesn't show you videos of players dislocating their fingers, getting concussions, or broken femurs. How hard would you hit the opponent if you thought that was going to happen?

- I have been there, I hurt badly both of my legs, could not walk for months.
- I would still hit as hard as I can, if I thought doing competitive rugby would worth it.
- Part of the risks.

It's not bad to teach someone what to do and why not to do it when they show the need to be fixed. Showing it to them before the bad movement will create a dangerous atmosphere that does not need to exist. Especially considering that weightlifting has one of the lowest injury rates in comparison to every other sport. Soccer being the most dangerous, I believe, while it is played by toddlers who are just learning to stand up.

- In the previous post I made pretty clear that it was a posteriori, after trying all the words I could think of, even showing the guy how to do it.